The Agents of Change in Environmental Justice podcast is a biweekly podcast featuring the stories and big ideas from past and present fellows, as well as others in the field. You can see all of the past episodes here.
Transcript
Brian Bienkowski
Pradnya, how are you doing today?
Pradnya Garud
I'm okay. How are you?
Brian Bienkowski
I am doing wonderful. And where are you joining us from today?
Pradnya Garud
I'm in Eugene, Oregon,
Brian Bienkowski
and how is it out there today?
Pradnya Garud
It's, It's sunny. It's nice, actually, yeah, it got really cold last week, but then we got back the sun. So last few days of sun before it gets cold and rainy.
Brian Bienkowski
Before the gray Pacific Northwest descends on you all. So you are from far from there. You are from Mumbai. So can you tell me about growing up in Mumbai, India?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, yeah, sure. So, yeah. I was born in Mumbai, and spent most of my adult life in Thane city, which is like just north east of Mumbai. And my maternal, actually grandparents, lived in labor camp in of Mumbai. So those labor camps were built by the British. It was basically like residents for migrant laborers who came from regions around Mumbai to work in railways or textile mills or just fill like, you know, labor needs in in colonial like Mumbai and my that became like my grandparents, like residents, they were like, I think, two generations living in the labor camps. And my mom grew up there. And so by growing up like we visited my grandparents during summer vacations and like festival celebrations. So I was mainly raised in very vibrant working class neighborhoods. There was always like, you know, things going around you religious and wedding processions, like music on loudspeakers playing in different languages, aroma of, like, different Indian cuisines, because, like, it was a migrant community. So they were like people from all across India, mainly like Southern India, yeah. So the environment was like where you always were surrounded by people, and all of your senses were activated. And like then I was like, you know, studying at University of Mumbai, like most of my schooling happened in Thane, but I studied at university level in Mumbai, and my family and my community members were, in general, influenced by the anti-caste movement, which has a long legacy from the from the state that I come from. So like many working class families, like you know, across across board, like and my family also saw education as a way to improve, like, one's living conditions. So my parents put a lot of emphasis on education. They wanted things for me which they couldn't have. So it so given this background, like, you know, and it was, like, very natural for me, like I was very interested in, like, study. So it naturally gravitated towards books and like learning in general, and like pursuing higher education.
Brian Bienkowski
So for those of us, not first of all, when I've never been India, but whenever I think of it the way you described it, being kind of colorful and hitting a lot of senses is what I think of. I always think of kind of vibrancy and color. And I don't know, it's probably just popular depictions, you know, I don't know. But can you explain for listeners, the caste system in India? I don't know if folks who aren't terribly familiar with that, you know, I don't know a lot about it, but I'd like to hear about that and maybe how it opened your eyes, at an early age, to environmental injustice.
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, for sure. So caste system is an hierarchical social structure in which people are divided based on their birth.So divided in birth-based caste groups. This grouping usually influences like social and cultural practices, like where one lives, what one eats, and like who one interacts with. One of the main like, important aspect of caste is as a form of social hierarchy. It determines what kind of labor one does. So for example, we have generations of people who are engaged in laboring like caste occupations such as weaving, shepherding, farming, tanning, fishing, amongst many. So because caste has historically determined one's occupation, there is a hierarchy between like laboring and non-laboring caste groups. So to put it simply, the majority of like people from lower caste groups, who largely make up the working class, are engaged in economic production process while as handful of upper caste groups control resources and the means of production. Just just to highlight that point a little bit: so the ownership of land, employment and leadership of private sector and public sectors is usually dominated by few upper caste groups. So in this context, which is very similar to what we see in other countries, working class people and in India, like lower caste groups, are –and especially in the cities– are situated in areas where there are poor living conditions, and they are disproportionately impacted by environmental hazards like floods, extreme heat and harmful industrial waste and pollutants. So I have experienced and witnessed these environmental justice issues in my community while growing up.
Brian Bienkowski
So what is a moment or event that has helped shaped your identity up to this point?
Pradnya Garud
So it's like very hard question, actually to think about like a single moment or an event. I like to think that how I understand myself has evolved and is composite of like my life experiences and people I have interacted with. Until my master's degree, I studied sciences, so I was though I was acutely aware of the social and environmental inequalities, I didn't really have an analytical or a systems level understanding of like, you know why certain section of the society, despite working so hard, lives in poverty and breathes bad air quality or don't have access to clean drinking water. So mostly, reading anti-caste literature and engaging with activists and community organizers helped me make sense of the world around me. So this provided, like you know, an education beyond the bounds of university education, and this learning also helped me to see how my lived experiences and background connected with circumstances of other people and communities in South Asia and other parts of the world.
Brian Bienkowski
So you, you came to the US in 2016 to attend the University of Arizona. So can you, can you talk about this, this immigration experience? What was it like for you, personally and professionally?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, yeah. So I moved in the US and fall of 2016 for my PhD studies, and I came directly to Tucson, which is like approximately 70 miles from the US-Mexico border. And so I started my first semester in the fall of 2016 and I had to contend with, like, this intense period leading up to the presidential elections, especially like the dehumanizing language related to immigrants. It was a pretty, actually confusing and challenging time to be a young immigrant woman navigating the US academic system and just in general, day to day life. But fortunately, like I, found like community amongst the immigrant rights activist groups in Tucson and had a great support system in form of my PhD advisor. And also, like, University of Arizona is a Hispanic serving institution. So I was introduced to a lot of issues related to the Spanish-speaking communities in the US, and to the social and environmental problems across central and like, you know, South America, which, which I was not like much aware before coming to the US. And academically, I think it really helped me develop to be an interdisciplinary thinking thinker and to make connections to people and communities that were different from me, and I also, like you know, was able to draw insights that sharpened my analysis of cast labor and environment.
Brian Bienkowski
Do you miss home?
Pradnya Garud
I do, every day.
Brian Bienkowski
Do you get back?
Pradnya Garud
I did, yeah, I just went last year, yeah, last winter, back home. I wanted to spend some time, because during pandemic, it became very difficult. I couldn't go for three years. So.
Brian Bienkowski
So you are now an environmental health data equity strategist – I love that, I love that term– for the Oregon Health Authority. So broadly speaking, what does an environmental health data equity strategist do?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah. So I think, like you know, my main role for this position is democratizing environmental public health data, because in public health, like, data is everything that determines, like, policy interventions that determines, like, you know, like, how, like, you know, how communities can protect themselves. So, so I think this is like, it's important, given also that data has always traditionally been available for selected group of experts or people, like with high numerical literacy. So my role is basically, like you know, intended to bridge that divide. It's a huge divide, and like you know, we are working on bridging that divide and making data basically available and accessible in anunderstandable format to the public, and especially to the environmental justice communities. And the main like, the main aim of this position is to reduce structural barriers and to facilitate, like, meaningful participation, to inform environmental and climate and health related interventions.
Brian Bienkowski
So can you talk, just to backtrack a little bit, I know, in your PhD dissertation project, could you, you know, you tied together issues of caste, labor and environmental justice, and I wondered if you could talk about that a little bit.
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, yeah. So, so, like, I mentioned, like, you know, I studied environmental sciences, and I was, like, very interested in, like, how to think about, like, you know, the social and like, you know, structure of caste in environmental issues. So I specifically was looking at, like, environmental sustainable initiatives in middle class neighborhoods, which are mostly like, you know, upper caste, like gated communities, like high income, like high consuming, like, you know, communities. And so I was looking at, like, you know, the initiatives that they were coming. So what happened, like, you know, in the 1990s this was like liberalization period where, like, Indian economy was open to the like, you know, like free market, lot of U.S. multinational companies were set up. And like, you know, we had this expanding middle class, which was, like, you know, very led, very global lifestyle. And like, you know, we had, like, a lot of development, high-end development to accommodate these people. And like, you know, that was more source of environmental inequalities in urban India. But like, the narrative was like, you know, very anti poor, that poor people were considered as, like, you know, responsible for environmental pollution. For the classic example that comes to my mind is plastic pollution. Like, you know, poor people were seen as, like, using more plastic and like, you know, like, as compared to, like, you know, these, like, environmentally conscious communities. So I was looking at like, you know, waste management practices, like, you know, initiatives which were coming up in these high-end neighborhoods, and what, like my research showed, is that these based-management or sustainability kind of practices were entirely dependent oncaste labor. Like exploitative caste labor, they reproduce this caste hierarchies like you know, through these, through though they were, like, branded as progressive, like, environmentally progressive, but socially they were actually, like, you know, reproducing the same, like, you know, very exploitative dynamics. So my research kind of, like, yeah, demonstrated that. And like, you know, brought back, like, you know. And also, like, I think in environmental scholarship in India, caste was never... the question of caste was never taken up, like, you know, in a serious way, in a theoretical way. So I tried to bring that forward that we cannot understand environmental issues and solutions unless you really, like, take the caste question head on. So. So, yeah. So that was, like, my project. And like, I did, like, ethnographic work, and, like, you know, participatory work with the with the middle class, like, you know, communities. And like, yeah. So, yeah, that's that was basically, like, my PhD. It was more of like, you know, I like to think it more like, you know, exploration for myself, because I was so curious, like, you know, I was like, like, carrying all these experiences with me, and I just wanted to, like, you know, be able to understand it for myself.
Brian Bienkowski
So your current position there in Oregon is represented by the service employees, International Union, SEIU. I think most people have heard of that, and you are part of their local 503 climate justice committee. So I was wondering if you could first, kind of talk broadly about the role you see unions playing in climate and environmental justice, and then about your specific role on this committee.
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, this might sound a little bit basic, but I would like, you know, like to explain like, the origin of like labor unions as an institution which is rooted in like industrial development, right? Like, when industries and factories were getting set up for large scale manufacturing, it produced profits for the owners, and like, you know, the workers were generating those profits. But like facing long working hours, low pay, unsafe working condition, like harmful exposure, like, for example, in the case of, like, you know, mining workers, or any other industrial type of like, you know, work. and so collectively, like workers come together, came together to form unions to advocate for themselves, and also like to create a kind of balance, right? like and like labor unions like are often like, thought of as an institutions that advances bread and butter issues. But if we look at look historically like labor unions took up issues that are related to environmental justice long before emergence of mainstream environmental movement. Because, like you know, how hazards, like affected workers and their communities, for example, like fight for clean air, clean water, like you know, industrial cleanup were taken up with taken up by unions like United Steelworkers, United Auto Workers. Also unions played an important role in improving social determinants of health, such as access to affordable health care, improved public housing. Now, like you know, there is literature which establishes very clearly that social determinants of health directly are related to environmental health. Like, you know, of communities. So actually, like, you know, like, I like to think of unions as very effective in advancing public health and environmental justice. So the SEIU, SEIU, which is service employee International Union, Shout out to my local, SEIU 503, We represent like, you know, SEIU overall, represents 2 million workers, mostly in healthcare, public service and Property Services in the US and Canada. And it's centering lot of, like, environmental and climate justice issues, like many other unions because, like, you know, the membership shapes the priority of the Union. And I, like, you know, I think because SEIU membership is so largely, like, you know, represents the healthcare workers who are the frontline responders, right for the climate, like, climate-related health impacts, they're seeing it very closely. Like, for example, like increase of emergency visits during heat events, or like, you know, floods or like tornadoes. So they are, like, very acutely aware. So I think that's why, like, you know, like, I think SEIU has, like, kind of been a leader in environmental justice and, like, climate justice work. And SEIU 503, is local. Like, you know, the climate justice committee, my role, I think, like, you know, I'm relatively new. I have been part of the Union for past two years, but I have been very actively engaged in, like, doing educational workshops, because, like, you know, because of my background as an educator, I think that suits my skill set, also providing a lot of policy inputs and building collaboration with other unions on climate justice issues. Just to give you an example, last month, we had a CIU 503 general council meeting, and we passed a resolution. We passed, actually multiple resolutions on climate related issues, but one specific resolution that I had authored was related to public housing for climate justice, given that, like, you know, both housing crisis and climate crisis are escalating, and there is such a need for climate resilient public housing, so it actually overwhelmingly passed. So that kind of indicates, the commitment of SEIU for climate justice work
Brian Bienkowski
So labor unions and enviro groups, you know, the NRDCsand Green Peace's of the world, they've often kind of been portrayed, you know, accurately or not, as being at odds with one another. And I actually remember talking to you about this when we were in person over dinner one night, and it was I was so nice to hear about your thoughts. I come from a union family from Detroit, and I've always seen them as they should be working together these groups. But of course, that isn't always the case. So understanding there's all this diversity amongst environmental groups and labor unions, can you talk a little bit more about this kind of alleged butting of heads? And maybe some places you see such groups could work together more?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, yeah, I remember you sharing about your family's union involvement. That was so nice to hear. So just like again, like, you know, thinking through little bit of history, like, so unions, like, you know, the examples that I gave, were very strong during industrial period, right, like, you know, until the 60s, we really see, like, like, you know, relatively high union density. And because, like, the US industrial, industrial sector was so strong, there was a lot of manufacturing in the US and and also, like, you know, World War Two, like you know, like it, it was so important manufacturing for a manufacturing sector in the US. But like, since the 70s onwards, when there were like implementation of de-industrialization policies, you see like decline of unions, because the industrial jobs were getting shipped elsewhere. And like, you know, you see decline of like unions and union power, especially like, you know, in the Midwest region, like, you know, The Industrial Belt of the US. And we really see like, you know, like decline and like, you know, lot of the neoliberal policies, right that were implemented. And so unions were in very defensive positions, because they had to, like, they were like, you know, they were in decline, and they had to protect, like, you know, whatever jobs were left. Like, good, good, good paying jobs were left, right? This was like, little bit of the historical context that we are like that to situate, like, you know, the union world. And also, when this is happening, also there is dwindling of social safety nets, right? And like now, at the present context, we see that there is like, such high cost of education, there is, like, no real alternative for working class people to have a better life. So holding on to jobs like even, like you know, for example, like the extractive industry unions are seen as environmentally conservative. Again, like, you know, there's a lot of diversity, but this is an overall perception, right? that they're pro-fracking and like, you know, like, because those generate jobs. But like, but then we have to, like, really situate that, that when this is happening, there is, like, really no other alternative for people other than holding to Union protected jobs to live a dignified life, right? And like, in the case of the environmental and climate groups, so unlike you know, many scholars have pointed that out that there is a lack of awareness of working class realities, and like, vacuum of working class leadership across race and gender in climate advocacy groups. Again, I'm not generalizing, but that this is the scholarly work that we have seen. Like, you know, why there is this tension. So, having said that, like, you know, it really, like, it doesn't, there is like truth to this, but it really doesn't represent the full picture. Because again, we see like, you know, when, when, like, the interest of like labor and like, you know, like labor rights, health and environment, when we are bringing that together. For example, the blue,-green coalitions, they create a unique identity, collective identity, and they have been able to, like, you know, combine forces and like, really,come forward to bring like, social and environmental changes.
Brian Bienkowski
Excellent. And I would implore listeners to check out both Pradnya and Moksha, another fellow's essay looking at the just transition and the interplay between unions and environmental groups, and we will put links to both of those in the show notes. So Pradnya, I have to ask you, you know, everybody that works in the environmental field, there's a certain amount of crises that we deal with and write about and think about and collect data on, and I'm wondering, what you do to maintain your your mental health and sanity? How do you take care of yourself?
Pradnya Garud
How do I take care? that's always such a hard question again, you know, I'm trying to, I'm not good at like, you know, but I'm really trying post PhD. I'm really trying to, like, take care of myself. And I think one of the fun things that I do is like, playing taiko, which is the Japanese drumming, which is a very great way to, like, you know, I that has really helped me, like, just being very physically active. And, like, living in Oregon, I think, like, nature walks. I think that has another been, like, yeah, a way of, like, self care
Brian Bienkowski
what is the first, what is the first one? tell me about this drumming?
Pradnya Garud
Oh, so Taiko. Taiko are the, like, you know, have you ever seen those are the big drums? Like, you know, it's a Japanese like, you know, drumming. It's like, it's like, visual art of, like, you know, drumming. So taiko is a big thing in North America because of, like, you know, Japanese immigrants and, like, Japanese women specifically, like, you know, took taiko to, like, you know, like, a great level. I would say, like, you know, public performances wise. So I am, like, part of the Eugene taiko group, and we do like, performances for the local community.
Brian Bienkowski
So how did you pick that up?
Pradnya Garud
It's just so funny, you know. So after I finished my PhD two years back, I was like, literally, like, and like, you know, also being from isolation and the pandemic, I wanted to, like, get out and like, you know, like, you know, also be connected to people and, like, be live, physically active. And somehow, like, you know, this workshop, they have this yearly workshops, and I had, like, you know, I thought, Oh, why not I just try out. And I tried the workshop, and like, you know, I was selected to be part of the team, yeah. So it has been, like, it's been two years. Actually
Brian Bienkowski
Good For You. You know, there's, there's something about being an adult and trying something that you don't know, that you don't know how to do. We don't do that enough as adults. As kids, we do it all the time. We get sent to camp and class, and we, you know, and we fail, and then we learn. But as adults, it's like we stick to what we know. So that's very cool to pick up something new like that. It's awesome. Good
Pradnya Garud
And I think I have always been like, you know, my family describes me as a bookworm, so I also wanted to get out
Brian Bienkowski
LOOK AT ME drumming! There's no books, no books involved. That is very cool. So what are you what are you optimistic about when it comes to kind of environmental, health, justice?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah, I like, you know, I think I'm really optimistic seeing the current labor organizing that is happening across the US since the pandemic. And, like, especially the United Auto Workers, like, you know, the big contract they won, like, the negotiation with the Big Three automakers, and a successful like strike last year, and this year, they negotiated the inclusion of like electrical battery production in the contract. So, like, you know, I'm really optimistic about labor unions. Like, you know, really head on taking this issue of like transition, like energy transition and labor organizing in environmental nonprofits. Because, again, like, you know, I had, like I had indicated earlier that, like, you know, we see there's a vacuum of working class leadership, um, amongst environmental and climate nonprofits. So this is a very positive development in my perspective, because this union organizing among workers and like environmental nonprofit groups also brings possibilities for labor movement to serve as an avenue to bring together those advocating for environmental causes. And, like, you know, within the extractive industries as workers. So, yeah, I think that there is a great potential and a real, like, you know, potential for change. Yeah, through the through these collaborations, I'm very excited to be living in this moment and being part and like witnessing this unfold.
Brian Bienkowski
So before we get you out of here and hear about the last book you read, I have three rapid fire questions you can just answer with a word or a phrase, a habit I picked up from my parents or other family members, is
Pradnya Garud
okay. I. I think I will go with, like, you know, I don't, it's not a habit. But, like, I think I picked up painting from my mom, cool, yeah.
Brian Bienkowski
Do you do watercolors?
Pradnya Garud
I do, yeah, yeah, watercolors, yeah.
Brian Bienkowski
I started doing that. We have long, cold, dark winters here. And I started, I play music a lot, but I needed something else, and I started painting, and I'm not good, and I love treating it as something that I'm not good at, and just something that's fun. It is super relaxing. Yeah,
Pradnya Garud
it is. It is, yeah, my, my mom mostly didn't like do it for relaxing. I think she did it to help me with my homework. Ah. Painting,
Brian Bienkowski
whatever works!
Pradnya Garud
But I think I have to thank her for like, you know, getting me into painting. Oh, that's
Brian Bienkowski
very cool. Something that brings me joy every day is,
Pradnya Garud
yeah, when I read this question, the the immediate first thing came to my mind was, like, a good cup of tea. Yes, I'm Indian. So, like, we drink a lot of tea.
Brian Bienkowski
Is there a certain type of tea, a certain type you like,
Pradnya Garud
yeah. So every morning it has to be like, you know, the Indian Chai, like, yeah. But like, with ginger, cardamom and, like, you know, the milk tea.
Brian Bienkowski
yes, excellent. We, I drink a lot of coffee, like, like most Americans, but we, uh, we do drink a lot of tea in the winter, and anything with ginger or turmeric in it are just, I just love, I just love ginger. That spiciness is so good.
Pradnya Garud
Same.
Brian Bienkowski
If I could have dinner with one person, it would be, yeah
So I think it would be like the anti-caste intellectual and architect of Indian constitution, Dr Ambedkar. he has been like inspiration for me throughout my life, and like, you know, for millions of lower caste communities in India. So I would love, I would be like, terrified, and
Brian Bienkowski
that's the point, right? You know, you have dinner with somebody who you're just in awe of,
Pradnya Garud
I will not eat at all,
Brian Bienkowski
drinking water, spilling it, for sure. And what is the last book that you read for fun?
Pradnya Garud
Yeah. So it was a year ago, actually, because most of the books that I have read this whole year has been like academic books. But this book I had read like, you know, for pure joy, and that was Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. I really enjoyed that book, and especially, like, living in Pacific Northwest now, because she is, like, you know, at Oregon State University. And like, yeah, I could really see the moss. And yeah, everything that she talks about,
Brian Bienkowski
why do I feel like was part of the book set in upstate New York, wasn't part of it?
Pradnya Garud
Yes, yeah, that's where she grew up. Yes, okay, yeah,
Brian Bienkowski
I read that as well, and I found it so beautiful, and it has such nice little simple life lessons and interacting with nature and respecting it. And I love that book, so I'm really glad you recommended it. And
Pradnya Garud
Pointing book.
Brian Bienkowski
is, and she has a lot of you know, she's pretty prolific. She writes a lot of essays, so if people haven't checked her out, whether it's the book or any of her writing, I would definitely encourage you to do so, she is a fantastic writer. I didn't know she was in Oregon. Now that's that's very cool. Well, Pradya, this has been delightful. I'm so glad to have you in the program, and I've learned a lot from you. And thank you so much for doing this today.
Pradnya Garud
Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.
